'How Safe is Safe?' Expat

How Safe is Safe?

Wow, someone touched a nerve bringing up security. As usual most have some points, many overreacted, but US FEAR CONDITIONING is hard to shake.

It is dangerous to walk around in many parts of Montevideo. Details like the time, the neighborhood and your disposition affect the outcome greatly. Women and young people are probably most at risk. Your risk increases outside of the prime/posh neighborhoods and at night. Having things that are targets to muggers is discouraged.

But let's take a breath here.

You can tour the Ciudad Vieja by day. See the wonderful Mercado del Puerto. Stay to the main route, it's paved especially for this with no automobile traffic. Other parts of the city are cool, but beware. If it's late and you're alone, head back. Take cabs, hang out where people hang out. That State (of Fear) Dept. travel advisory or whatever that says to lock the doors and roll up your windows is just the US posturing that the rest of the world is "dangerous". Travel, but stay in the 'approved areas' and return quickly to support all the homeland security bs they're using to remove all the freedoms that good people died to protect. But, I digress.

I mostly want to hear from Elaine. I like your attitude about helping to improve areas like Cordon. The whole world doesn't have to be in Pocitos or shop at Punta Carretas Shopping. Sorry you feel everyone is just singing praises and you are alone citing the dangers. It can be dangerous and that's a drag, but I think the message here for people who want to visit or consider a move is that it is, relative to the horrors in many parts of the world, a safe and peaceful place. You sound so progressive, I was jolted when you cited a white party campaign point. Sorry dear, they are promoting the elitist agenda. Yes, petty crime is a huge problem, but I bet they failed to mention that a more equitable tax and reduction of pension for the already wealthy here could allow some governmental assistance to the poor. The robberies are motivated by people in a desperate situation, with no opportunities, surrounded by opulence. Their reaction is not too hard to understand.

jonathan, nice post but you need to log some more time here.

I liked Mauro's comments too although a little heavy on the Democracy dude.

There is much American to despise, but you get a nice greeting and a fresh start every time you encounter a Uruguayan. People are tolerant here and Americans should be happily surprised and a little ashamed to see how people that are different should be treated.

Now, there's also a subjective component. If you mind yourself as vulnerable, you will see things, worse than they are. Also, the less you don't know about a place and a society, the more you will be feel at risk. That varies from one individual to another. I know locals that live their life behind bars, locks, alarms and fierce dogs, and still feel unsafe. And I know people that would just don't pay attention to even the most probable risks and won't take even the most simple precautions.

Have you ever traveled any where? Chicago, Atlanta, San Francisco, Seattle, Rockford, Illinois, Paris, Amterdam, Jamica Rio de Janerio or ANY CITY IN THE WORLD.

Alberto says it right. If you mind yourself as vulnerable, you are. Hold your head up and know where you are going. Your "look" can tell a lot about yourself as well.

Pick-pockets and crime are a statistic EVERYWHERE. Am I saying stay in your house, lock the doors and never go out? NO. What I'm saying is when you travel OR live you need to be smart. Know the area you are in.

In November we traveled to Montevideo. As a amatuer photographer I was enthralled with the architecture there. We were staying Ciudad Veja area. On Sunday early afternoon I began snapping pictures and walking around. I did not feel threated at all. Had I felt threatened I would never had gone out. (yes, I am a woman.)

We have traveled around the world, traveling can be fun and exciting, be smart like ALberto said. KNOW YOUR SURROUNDINGS.

We were treated very nicely when we were in Uruguay, and we treated them the same way. After traveling around the world, US adn Canada, I put the Uruguans as #1 in friendliness and helpfulness.

MUCH AMERICAN to despise? Why are you in Uruguay if you

despise it or feel that way?

Alberto you hit it right! Thanks!!!

(I am Jane. Terry's wife)

What Contra said is right, Alberto communicates very well and is right and Jane makes me happy as a Uruguayan, that she put the Uruguayans as the friendly and helpful people compared to others and she is right

I must say that for 41 years living in the United States I did the same thing.

I always felt the responsibility that I was representing my Birth Country with my actions.

I know that security in Uruguay has changed, but it's not only unique to Uruguay it's changing everywhere.

In 1969 when I arrived from safe Uruguay to a very unsafe New York it was a shock.

My first Subway trip someone was looking to rob me, but change his mind. Going to work in the South Bronx (Fort Apache) remember Paul Newman's movie ?.there was no choice I needed to work, so I walked the Streets like I lived there, rode the Subway like I did it everyday and in a few weeks I felt safe and secure but always alert.

Contra said - People are in a desperate situation with no opportunities TRUE -

BUT is that enough reason to commit crime, NO.

Also the opulence is a Human right and in Uruguay we have a lot of respect for that.

You need to open your obviously closed eyes. America seems to be the first on site when there is a grave disister with financial and humanitarian aid.

President Bush did more for aids victims in Africa than any other president past or present; even more than many of those countries did for their own people. The list is long, I don't have the time, and I DO NOT SUFFER FOOLS VERY WELL.

So if an American occasionally offends some other nationality by being American, too bad. It's who we are. We do a lot more good in the world than Chavez, North Korea, and most African and Middle Eastern countries. Add up the money and aid spent in Haiti. No one spent more than America and what do we have to gain from it financially? NOTHING!!!!!

MUCH AMERICAN TO DESPISE. Kiss my ass lady. You should apply for a position in the Obama Administration. You'd probably get it.

America is not lilly white but as the bible says "He who is without sin, let him cast the first stone." And I'm willing to stake my life that you're not lilly white either. When I move to Uruguay I hope we can meet and you can run this progressive crap by me one more time.

Sorry for this Glen but I'm tired of hearing how bad we Americans are. You don't have to stand tall but you've got to stand up. I do both.

Terry Jackson

But I don't think that Bush will be a good seller. Not just in Uruguay but in most Countries around the World.

You can be proud to be an American and part of this great group of people that I will always defend. But Bush "NO SALE"

Good luck in Uruguay, become a Penarol fan and enjoy tranquil life without violence.

I am not disputing Bush and Iraq. But now is Iraq better off than it was with sadaam. Are human rights on the rise now.

Back on track.

America is not lilly white. Neither was Bush. But the fact is he did what I said he did whether you like him or not. What have you done lately to help the human race besides bash Bush. Get your facts right instead of regergitating talking points. HAHA

Of course the US is not lilly white, no country is. The history of countries is painted in whites, blacks and all the grades of grey. And as the US is such an influential nation, its whites and blaks stand out as more shining and more darker, respectively. Some facts, actions, decitions, and leaders, add white; and some add black. I'm not going to discuss about Iraq here with you; the Iraq, the World, and the US people themselves, have already answered what your questions about it. But I would just join Jorge and Florence advise. Bush won't open you doors anywhere. Bush is considered part of the dark side of the US, al over the world (and as much as I know, even at home). Anyway, I hope you can open your mind, and I hope you will. There's nothing better when you are decided to move to a diferent culture than trying to understand their own vision and feed from it, rather than building a known and safe shield with your old ideas and visions. By the way, what other reason would you have to make the move if you don't want to change your environment.

Be welcome to Uruguay. We accept all the opinions... and we love irony about the things we don't agree with. Don't get it too personal. You'll learn the game soon. :)

To despise Americans because of our birthplace is somewhat racist don't you think. And our government's actions are based on military intelligence, not our personal feelings and idioligies.

Suppose that statement by Contra Veta said Uruguayans instead of Americans. What would your response be? I personally am tired of the Obama administration apologizing for us all over the world. I also am tired of political correctness geting in the way of national security. That started back in the Clinton years. Like I said, you don't have to stand tall but you have to stand up. Being American is not something to be ashamed of.

The reason I seek another country to retire to is because of BARACK OBAMA and the Democrats. America is taking an irreversable change for the worse and I am looking out for Jane and I. Thats the plain and simple truth.

Alberto if you live in Uruguay and I assume you do, take an impromptu poll of the American Expats in Uruguay and ask them why they are leaving America for Uruguay. I'll bet you will find that the policies and the direction of the Obama administration play a big part of their decission to move, more so than the policies and the direction of the Bush administration. I personally toyed with moving since my first trip to Rio in 2000 but Obama made up my mind for me, not Bush.

I happen to love South America, especially Brazil. I want to enjoy the upsidedown world and not be judged for my nationality, but by how I treat people, and I treat them with respect until they treat me wirh disrespect. But I absolutely not stand down to anyone because I am an American, nor will I apologize for it, nor will I stand silent when I hear it being wronged which I felt she did.

By the way Jorge. I AM THE HUSBAND. Jane is my wife. Hope you understand my point and me a little more than you did.

Terry (the husband)

I fight for Americans anytime (they are my Family, Friends, Neighbors and Co-workers). Have no doubt, that I understand your point, but I disagree totally. That will not make you or me a bad person, just people with different points of view.

There's no point in discussing Obama or Bush - National correctness - National security - Abortion - Health care and many other points.

I was very involved in the last election and very much involved the 8 years before that. After one year I still believe that WE CAN just give the President a chance and lay back just like I did for 8 years. This household voted for Hillary first(you probably hate that even more)but I have a good memory and I remember the good of the Bill years. I also remember the decency of Carter and how much he cared about Human Rights (Chile for example)

We are all Americans with different ideas about what is good for this Country and it's great people, but the World is changing and the USA should change accordingly or it would only be a strong Military Country

I'm also a METS fanatic so "Lets go Mets".

I wish you good luck Jorge. You sound like a nice guy and I hope it works out for, but I know it won't work out here for me. I hope all the people that voted for him get everything they deserve and are happy with him.

By the way, I do have friends that are democrats. They just are not anyone from the ClInton or Obama administration. That should answer the underlying question about Hillary. I wouln't vote for a Democrat even if Jesus Christ was running on the ticket, and I am a practicing Catholic.

Maybe we'll meet in Uruguay someday. I plan on moving next year. We can have discussions over a coke or two while our wives shake their head and go shopping.

Good luck Jorge and I sincerely mean it

Terry

After reading the phrase of you philosophical guide, Al Capone, do you really thing you need any answer to your questions? The answer is there! Just dig in it.

I really thought whether continue this discussion or not, cause continuing would have meant to answer one by one all your phrases. You are soooooo wrong. About the World, about the US itself, its history abroad, the reasons and origine in time of its current domestic economic crisis. I don't even agree with you on the reasons why an American should be proud, and the reasons why an American could be ashamed, about his/her country. It seems to me you prise the shamefull reasons, and forget the other. But that's ok. It's your opinion. Whatever, let me save you from being wrong again! Don't come to Uruguay. Not for us, really, we can cope with another facist, we have some born here too. It's for yourself. You won't feel confortable here. Stay home. Or build a fenced villa somewere in the Caribbean where the poor, dark and mean won't reach you. And more important, where any ideas jump over the fence different with the ones that make you confortable. Uruguay could still be a good place to retire, though, for the Americans that still think Al Capone was wrong.

Stay home, Terry. There's no other better place for you. Belive me.

In either case (or continuing the discussion here), let's hope that everyone is able to freely HOLD and EXPRESS their own thoughts and that we can victoriously debate the IDEAS, not the people!

I think if you met Terry (I have) you'd find him to be a very personable fellow, regardless of whether his political views are in line with Bush, Obama or elsewhere.

ie: let's not tell Terry to stay home, but let us know how the "ideals" of Bush are incompatible with the culture of Uruguay.

Also I know that my Wife will go to the Mall with your Wife, that is why I always pick a Mall with a Bar and big screen TV.

The Uruguayan culture is wide and it has room for all opinions and ideas.

They took the freedom of the Uruguayan people for more than a Decade so opinions are respected even though they are not agreeable.

Just no violence here or in Uruguay, lets try to respect each other.

This week it's very hard to stay cool, just watching the News it's sad.

We have a Dog name Chunky and believe it or not I learned from him something very important, When My Wife and I go out and we're gone for a while, that the Dog has to make somewhere. He makes in a lot of differences places except one place (Where he EATS).

I will be following his teaching as long I live in the USA.

Nobody was discussing Uruguayan politics. We were discussing American politics and I believe it's important for Terry to understand that some people may think different than him and that no one has the absolute truth.

I don't think that would be wise to take a local mentally to Uruguay and try to apply it.

The reason why I participate in this forum is to find out if my American wife can live and adapt herself to Uruguay and to express my opinion and if I can help somebody, great.

Do you think it would be a good idea to separate Uruguayans opinions from Americans. They are going to live together in Uruguay so I think this is a very good place to start and Lee keep up the good work.

I never called you any names did I? You lefties is so good at that.

During my trip in November, I met quite a few like minded American Expats that have left for the reasons you champion.

We facists are sneaky bastards. You better watch your ass between Atlantida and Punta. There's a lot of us out there hiding, --waiting. In another year we'll be forming malitias. We'll be coming out of the woodwork chanting terrible horrific phrases like freedom and self reliance. We'll actually be teaching Uruguayans how to be self sufficient and not to rely on the government. JUST KIDDING.

Like I said to Alberto, take an impromptu poll of the American Expats in Uruguay and I'll bet you will find that they are leaving America for a lot of the same reasons I am. OBAMA.

As I have said before, I treat people with respect until they disrespect me or mine. I really don't care what you believe nor will I attempt to change you. I'm 60 and I haven't got that much time left. Besides, it will interfer with my facist agenda. Just kidding AGAIN.

Your beliefs are OBVIOUSLY not mine. Neither are most of my friends beliefs. But we still build our muscle cars together, have a beer together and share the knowledge of our respective construction and manufacturing trades. That is what We do. We help other with common interests.

By the way , you really didn't get the understand the Al Capone philosophy as I meant it. Basically it means I support A STRONG MILITARY and a compassionate one, as I believe tha American Military is. I do not encourage crime and gangsters, but being a facist, you just never know do you. That probably won't make sense to you but I think your wife would know. Just Kidding. I think with Lee's intervention that we have carried this as far as it should go.

You seem like a nice guy Jorge, but I am not wrong. Good luck to you and your wife. I think she'll find Uruguay full of nice people. We feel that Uruguayans are second only to Brazillians, but not by much. South Americans can teach Americans a lot about manners an humility.

No more politics Jorge. And nor more responses about them either OK!!!

Terry

Don't blame Jorge. It was me. Fascism is not really an insult is a ideologic definition that takes into account the relative value that people gives to concepts as peace, human life, "national security", and the use of military forces. Don't understimate me about my interpretation of your praise of Al Capone's phrase. Of course the legal anecdote of Al Capone, is taken here in a figurative way. By the way, his phrase is much much, older, it's concept has been used with similar words by Teddy Roosevelt, a president linked to many local dictatorships in the memory of all Latinamericans. That's the real problem. You talk about "national security". The US is seen in the rest of the world as a warrior country. In fact, it's hardly to find a period of a few years when American soldiers weren't fighting, or invading, or changing governments, or backing dictatorships somewhere abroad. In Latinamerica, direct or under-cover operatios has been constant; and you can maybe agree with me that countries as Guatemala, Nicaragua, Panama, Dominican Republic, Grenada, Chile, Bolivia, or even Uruguay, could no way impose a problem of "national security" to de US. So when you in Latinamerica figuratively talk about smiling and using a gun; we know exactly what you are talking about. For example, in Uruguay, we sufferd a 12 year dictatorship where simple people, some of them my friends, where tortured by soldiers or policemen trained by the US on how to torture. I've talked about this with many Europeans and they have another perspective cause they image is based on the US soldiers sacrifice during WWII. Those are the bright and the white side of the US. The libertarian, and the fascist. The land of freedom, and the "Imperial" republic. The smile and the argument, and the gun. Many Americans choose the bright side of their national History, and are right to be very proud. You seem to choose the other side of the story. It's not that you cannot express your ideas. As I said before, this is a free country. And, we have our own fascists, so one more is nothing. The problem will be for you. A Uruguayan fascist knows when to remain silent not to insult some very personal experiences in the rest of their fellow citizens. Nobody would praise the Dictatorship in public these days. But you are not that concious. When you explain that you support the interventions of the US abroad to support the "national security" (in the US, of course), that'll mean dictatorship, invation, and blood in LA; or national destruction with 200.000 dead people, and a devastated economy in Iraq. It's not a question of personal beliefs or politics. Al Capone's "gun" has faces of relatives or friends that were killed, tortured or raped. It's a completely different experience than watching it throug CNN.

Again, if you want to come, it's not our problem. It'll be yours. You'll come to a much more "socialist" country than Obama could have ever imagined. And you'll be unconfortable with the people, the society, the economy and Politics. It's up to you.

When I leave the US. I am leaving the US. I'll not be affected because I will have nothing there that will affect me. That's the point of leaving it. Until then, I still live here. I will never be ashamed of being American, or of my political affiliation. And I will probably never return to it. Believe it or not I look forward to not hearing the bad news and not worrying about how I can get my assets out of the US dollar before it crashes or without taking a big hit at the exchange. Uruguay is simply a base for me. My only concern will be the economics of the country. I treat everyone as interesting and intelligent. All I ask for is the same. I do not start trouble, but I will finish it if it comes down the pike. And I really don't give a damn who likes me and who doesn't. If you or Jorge don't, take a number, you're not alone.

There's an old American saying that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Only and time will tell who is on the paving crew. You and Jorge, or me.

Lee I promise no more response.

I am willing to put money down that scumbags will be able to sense the fact that it's in your pocket simply through the way you carry yourself by knowing it is there, and they will never touch you again.

Terry, don't let the doormats get you down. There are some of us here who still have self-esteem and confidence in ourselves.

-EB

Where is the line between attacking a simple beggar and defending yourself against a thug?

Fear?

Miscommunication?

The size of the weapon your pocket?

Maybe so but I'd rather be alive and afraid than dead from having assumed wrongly that people are all flowers and rainbows.

IMV there is a huge difference between defending your home and invading distant lands.

I was educated as a good imperialist in order to help administer the British Empire but it all fell to pieces before I had the chance to give it a proper go. My father had the pleasure of invading Iraq twice... once in 1923 and again in 1941. My father, grandfather, great grandfather and great great grandfather all "liberated" Afghanistan and helped to "bring order and freedom" to the place by installing pro-Brit puppet governments but as always, it was a futile task which ended in a great many deaths and finally in ignominious defeat reported at home as gallant victories.

As a young man I worked in SE Asia as a civilian contract air navigator for the US Peace Corps and USAid which gave me the opportunity to see the full mad futility of invading foreign lands in the hopes of imposing our systems on a lot of people who didn't want them. Had we dropped dollar bills, Marlboro cigarettes and a few Buicks on them instead of napalm and agent orange, things might have turned out differently.

In my old age I've come to realize that endless futile warfare is viewed as an socio-economic necessity by our rulers and that such people are incapable of learning from the mistakes of the past.

One of the things I love most about Uruguay is its tolerance of differences and its refusal to invade, bomb, missile and otherwise kill those with whom it disagrees. A couple of years ago El Pais conducted a poll asking Uruguayos whether they would fight if a foreign army was to invade us. A majority said no :-)

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