'Differences in Northern and Southern Construction' Expat

Terry (1) from Dubuque, Iowa USA - 10/22/09 13:42

After looking at the responses in my previous posting about construction costs, I guess I don't know the difference. What do Uruguayans do differently than Americans in their building constuction methods and materials?. I guess I only know one way of doing it right.

Terry

Comment #1 Elaine (1) from Ireland - 10/22/09 13:59

"Construction Standards"

How long is a piece of string?!

Terry I almost wouldn't know where to start on this one! Are you living in Uruguay already or have you lived here before or is all this just a hypothetical inquiry?

If you have lived here for any period of time you'll probably be familiar with Uruguayan culture and certain standards and the differences in the way things are done.

I wouldn't call Uruguayans lazy (some Uruguayans I have met are very hard workers - but in many cases I think thats simply because its a lower income country, and in many jobs the more you work the more you earn).

As such I have found they they will cut corners just to get things done. They will choose the simplest or fastest (but not necessarily most efficient or effective) way of doing things. If they have access to certain materials and not to others they will use what they have - even if it is substandard.

What drives me crazy is the finishing touches - skirting boards (or baseboards in American English) are poorly fitted (if fitted at all), light switches and plug sockets are known to be crooked and poorly fitted, electrical wiring is messy, and often left exposed...

There's no specific to "What do Uruguayans do differently?" - or at least not in my opinion. Not all Uruguayans are the same just as not all North American or European people are the same. However if you choose to build from scratch you will probably experience many moments of "why in gods name would anyone do it like that?!" - hence you have to be there, watching, to say before it gets done how EXACTLY you want it.

Comment #2 Terry (1) from Dubuque, Iowa USA - 10/22/09 17:08

"Differences in Northern and Southern Construction"

Hi Elaine

Thanks for the response. You really like Uruguay don't you? It shows in your response.

Jane and I are coming for 3 weeks in November and if we like it, applying for residency and move within the next year. I have worked in three types of construction all my life, electical substation construction, excavating and steel erection. We are considering building but not opposed to buying. If we decide to build, I am trying to get some idea of whether to do some of it myself or subcracting all of it out. Hence the cost per square meter question. I look very closely at, and listen to, other peoples experiences with the local craftsmen. Sounds like you have had some bad experiences with them. I don't want something done half assed so I don't mind paying for quality work. I guess I'll just have to ask around and look closely at their work when we arrive. I'm just trying to get an idea of what will work best for us from a cost and quality perspective.

Thanks Elaine

Terry

Comment #3 Elaine (1) from Ireland - 10/23/09 06:41

"Opinions on Uruguayan workers"

"You really like Uruguay don't you? It shows in your response."

Not sure if this was sarcastic or not (me being a big fan of sarcasm I find that it all too often gets misunderstood in text form!)

I do really like Uruguay (otherwise why would I choose to live here?!) but like every country it has its pros and cons. Some issues still bother me, most I have made peace with at this point.

I personally have not had first hand experiences in construction here, but I have been closely involved with a few people doing different types of projects (renovating in Montevideo, building from scratch in the countryside, building for business etc), I have been on sites and so I do know what its like.

Like I said before - there are a few fairly well known contractors (mostly not Uruguayan but have lived here for a long time) and they do things to a higher standard - but as such they also cost more. If you want contact details I can send them.

Your own experience and knowledge in construction would very helpful so that makes a difference too. Keep in mind that if you choose to buy because its easier - the house has still been built in the same way, the only difference is you don't know what happened during construction!

Let us know how you get along with your research in to this and what you learn along the way....good luck!

Comment #4 Terry (1) from Dubuque, Iowa USA - 10/23/09 18:01

"Differences in Northern and Southern Construction"

Hi Elaine

Not sarcastic at all. Just a hunch. It's intuitively obvious even to the most casual observer.

Terry

Comment #5 Patrick from Rural east Colonia departmento - 10/23/09 18:22

"Construction"

Gosh! As Elaine says "where to begin?" I should add that I LOVE the ROU in spite of the drawbacks.

Regulations. A certain amount of local planning and building regulations apply in the cities and suburban areas. On agricultural holdings of 5 ha or more, no regulations apply.

Contracts. The vast majority of constructors will contract on a labour-only basis. You (or your architect /clerk of works) provide the materials.

Basic materials. The use of structural timbers is rare. The most common constructional method for walls involves steel reinforced concrete frame with a double brick and/or conctere block infill forming a cavity. It is customary to apply a waterproof membrane to the cavity surface of the inner leaf before the outer leaf is added. Roofs usually come in two formats... light or heavy. The light comprises metal sheeting usually mounted on triangular or rectangular purlins made of 5mm steel rods. The heavy construction is of steel reinforced cast concrete with a waterproof coating or concrete tiles on top. Internal plastering with a "finish" plaster is also rare. Either the brickwork is left exposed and/or painted or a smooth concrete render surface is achieved using sand/cement and a local product called Articor.

Prefabricated materials. I'm told that things like reinforced concrete beams are available in MVD, P de E and the coast but in rural areas almost nothing is available. This, the lack of tool and plant hire companies and a rural preference for hand tools over mechanisation makes progress extra slow in rural areas.

The unknown. Because the ROU is a conservative sort of place, there is a preference amongst constructors to do things as they have always done them. The idea of building a septic tank (rather than a traditional pozo negro (cess pit)) caused two weeks of arguments and attracted a large number of other local constructors to come and view this strange foreign method of treating waste :-) Needless to say, plastic perforated pipes for the soakaway were also not available so I employed a worker for 5 days drilling thousands of holes in lengths of conventional plastic sewer pipes. The other major point of misunderstanding /disagreement was wrt thermal insulation which is generally viewed as a pointless waste of time and money. Even after seeing/feeling the difference that insulated walls and roofs make to the internal temperatures, I can see that my constructors still view it as a stupid waste of money. The ROU idea of a damp proof course is a layer of waterproof paint under the base of the walls and pukka bitumen-based DPCs aren't available down here. I got around the problem by buying a roll of mega-tough plastic and cutting it into strips. Floors are usually solid concrete with a tile or floating wood finish. I met resistance to my foreign views wrt laying a plastic membrane and a layer of insulation under the concrete slabs but I finally persuaded them.

Fittings. Copper pipes are rare and plastics are generally used instead. I made the error of installing Chinese taps in the main bathroom and kitchen but have had to replace every last one of them with much more expensive European and US imports. Flush-fitting ceiling and wall lights are generally available but "dangly" ones are hard to find unless you want grand chandelliers. Electrical items like fridges, kettles, microwaves, washing machines etc come with a bewildering array of different plugs so it pays to install a selection of different sockets to accommodate them all. I finally settled for 4 different varieties but could have managed with 3.

Doors and windows. I found the available quality of stock internal doors to be poor but local carpenters are capable to building quality ones for only 20% more. Windows are mostly of wood or aluminium and again down here, I found it better value to have them made to measure... though you can find a good selection pre-made in MVD. The standard external door here is a locally produced steel jobbie but my contractors can't grasp that I want them airtight at the bottom to prevent the ingress of spiders. I'm now skilled in the art of casting silicone rubber thresholds :-) You'll find a good selection of high security Argentinian external doors at various places in the Av Italia in MVD. I've seem quality double glazed pannels in MVD but the 125 kms of transport down here seems to ping the seals resulting in a permanent foggy view.

Speed. I'm told that its possible to get time-limited contracts from the best constructors on MVD and P de E but elsewhere it pays to judge how long the job would take in the US or Europe and multiply it by 5 or 6. The renovation part of my house would have taken my Polish workforce in the UK 2 to 3 months... here it took 15. The new-build 200 sq meters would have taken them 4 months but its been 17 months so far with another 4 to 6 to go. This isn't just down to a slower pace of life... its the lack of prefabricated materials and power tools which we take for granted ooop north. A 12 x 6 meter concrete roof takes about 4-5 days if you have precast beams, filler bricks, pumped readymix concrete etc but building it from first principles, it takes about 2 months.

Anyway, those are just some of the problems you are likely to meet so you'll need to rent a house nearby and resign yourself to daily inspections :-)

Comment #6 Terry (1) from Dubuque, Iowa USA - 10/23/09 18:48

"Differences in Northern and Southern Construction"

Patrick

Are the interior walls concrete or masonary also and not framed. I guess you ar telling me that wood framing is virtually non existant there. Is there a reason for it other than past practice or is it not used based on weather or soil conditions or wood destroying insects?

Comment #7 Patrick from Rural east Colonia departmento - 10/23/09 19:22

"North'n'south"

Internal walls are usually brick or hollow concrete block with an Articor render finish.

I suspect its mostly down to tradition as constructors stick to masonry leaving carpenters to deal with wood. Its also down to cost as locally made bricks/blocks are cheap but imported timber, boarding and plaster board are expensive relative to prices oop north. A sheet of 8' x 4' 15mm sterling board (compressed wood chippings) can cost you 40 U$S but you can buy 12 wire-cut bricks for 1 U$S.

Looking at the remains of old timbers from my former galpon (barn) I identified infestations of common furniture beetle (woodworm) as well as longhorn beetles and something similar to death watch beetles along with all manner of interesting fungi. Rapid and extreme changes are a feature of the local climate so condensation can introduce moisture where you least expect it. Its 9.30pm at the moment with high humidity and an outside temperature of 28 degC (82 degF.) The forecast for dawn tomorrow is 10 degC (50 degF) with 3" of rain overnight. :-)

Comment #8 Terry (1) from Dubuque, Iowa USA - 10/24/09 09:46

"Differences in Northern and Southern Construction"

Patrick

Thanks for the info. It's more than I had hoped for. I guess I have to reevaluate my thinking on the building since I am only familiar with concrete basements, wood structures and masonary veneer. The only concrete structures we see here are parking ramps. Commercial buildings are steel structurs with precast concrete sides and whatever veneer choice over them.

By the way. Do homes in Uruguay have basenments or just a floating slab with maybe a thickened edge or frost wall?

Thanks again

Terry

Comment #9 Patrick from Rural east Colonia departmento - 10/24/09 12:49

"Foundations and basements"

The steel reinforced concrete frame system common here involves foundations in the form of deep holes positioned under each of the vertical framing members rather than the continuous trench foundations found in Europe. The size of the holes is determined by the ground conditions and the size/weight of the building. A pre-formed rectangular arrangement of steel rods in inserted into each hole before backfilling with concrete. Just below ground level, horizontal steel/concrete members are cast joining onto each foundation and onto the vertical pillars rising out of each hole resulting in a very rigid arrangement of interlinked reinforced concrete beams. In Europe and the Far East such methods are only used on large buildings but here it seems to be in common use with smaller domestic constructions.

I've seen some better quality new houses in urban locations (where land cost is significant) with basements or rather semi-basements... usually where the house is built on a slope or where the basement is cut down a meter or so into the ground with soil banked up against the outside of the construction.

The oldest part of my house (circa 1890) had a cellar to provide a cool place for maturing cheeses but it tended to flood during periods of heavy rainfall.

Talking to constructors and local architects, it seems that basements are uncommon here because of the tendency to get our rain in the form of heavy downpours and the associated risks of flash flooding. Its quite common to find houses built on top of meter high piles of hardcore to help guard against sudden floods.

Outside the cities, the ROU is a remarkably underpopulated place so the cost of the land area occupied by the building is minimal. Its usually cheaper to build above ground than below it.

Comment #10 Terry (1) from Dubuque, Iowa USA - 10/24/09 13:43

"Differences in Northern and Southern Construction"

Thanks again Patrick

I appreciate your time and sharing your knowledge.

Terry

Comment #11 Patrick from Rural east Colonia departmento - 10/24/09 15:00

"Construction"

No problem.

I've been totally immersed in the mysteries of Uruguayan construction for the last 2.5 years... made even more complex by my desire to incorporate an 8 meter Norman style tower into the building and the lack of such things in the ROU. I'll have to find myself new pastimes once the project is finally completed :-)

Comment #12 Terry (1) from Dubuque, Iowa USA - 10/24/09 19:44

"Differences in Northern and Southern Construction"

Patrick

Maybe we can meet and discuss our backrounds over a Coca Cola or two when we move there. I would lie to see how thing are done and be able to ask questions in English. Your tower project sound interesting.

I was an excavating contractor for 13 years and an ironworker for 15 years.

I will retire from ironwork sometime this coming spring. Jane and I hope to be able to move there sometime late next year. We are coming for 3 weeks but I know I will not be able to get to Colonia this trip.

Actually I have been reading a lot of your responses for the last 6 months and was impressed by your construction knowledge. You seem to be the only one with a construction backround besides Steve Bowman. I had hoped we could converse in this media sometime and I finally got the opportunity.

Thank you again for the info. I hope I can someday reciprocate.

Terry

Comment #13 Patrick from Rural east Colonia departmento - 10/25/09 12:45

"Construction"

Sounds like a good plan.

I started out as a rural administration surveyor but drifted into a dual life with a potato growing/chipping company in NE Thailand and a remedial construction company specialising in the renovation of historic buildings in England... on the grounds that it rains too much in Ireland, variety is the spice of life and eggs are best kept in several baskets :-)

Steve Bowman will be more up to speed with what goes on construction-wise in MVD, P de E and the coast as he's not a Colonia neo-peasant like me.

I hope you both have a really good time when you come and that you'll end up loving the place as much as us Irish expats seem to :-)

Comment #14 Pete from Idaho, USA - 02/16/10 08:59

"Amazing Conversation"

A great one for the archives. Thank you.

P.

Comment #15 Administrator from Uruguay - 02/16/10 09:49

"Construction Info"

All this information and more can be found in our Expat Ebook undet the construction section

• Total Uruguay Expat Ebook

Comment #16 Bik from Montreal - 02/18/10 13:23

"construction differences"

I have noticed on Buscando Casa that a lot of photos show homes whose walls appear to show water damage as if it had wicked up from the floor to about chair-rail level and then again at ceiling level. My guess was that it was from flooding. Patrick would seem to affirm that. The only person I know who's been to Montevideo, said that the lobby of the hotel flooded and he was forced to find accommodation else where. All of that considered, is there any rule of thumb when house buying as to what sort of topography to avoid like, say, a house at the bottom of the street? In the case of MVD are there neighbourhoods more prone to flooding than others?

Comment #17 Elaine (1) from Ireland - 02/18/10 13:48

"Flooding and Dampness"

In my experience flooding isn't such a threat in central Montevideo, in the outskirts perhaps more so. Obviously apartments are well above ground level and so not really at risk, most terraced houses (a very popular style in the central barrios) tend to have some sort of steps up to main level inside. I have seen some pretty torrential rain here but I have only heard of flooding in the outer barrios of Montevideo, although its quite a common problem in the interior of the country where drainage is poor.

The big issue here in Uruguay is dampness during the winter. The air just gets so wet as there is so much moisture from the river/sea and in the many lakes. I have never seen wallpaper in Uruguay now that you mention it, possibly for that reason, but even with painted concrete walls its not usual to see damp patches form and many people just paint over them...essentially it comes down to poor insulation and building standards as are mentioned above and in the expat guide.

Not to mention that many buildings do not have built-in heating systems so gas space heaters are very common and they spew out vapor like nobody's business.

Comment #18 Bik from Montreal - 02/18/10 14:15

"housing/ neighbourhoods"

Is there a good map of Montevideo to be had on some site? I've found one on Wickepedia but by the time you get it to the enlarged version so you can see the number codes, the corresponding names are on another page.

Another stupid question, as I like to do a lot of walking, how far is it from the western point of Ciudad Vieja to the eastern extremity of Pocitos ... mas o menos? In photos, the city seems so densely populated that these barrios can't cover a large area.

I have made a little hand drawn map for my own reference and it includes Ciudad Vieja, Centro, Barrio Sur, Aguada, Villa Munoz/Goes, Cordón, Palermo, Parque Rodo, Tres Cruces, La Comercial, Laranaga, La Blanqueada, Parque Batlle/Villa Dolores, Pocitos, Punta Carretas all of which seem to form the core of the city.

Comment #19 Patrick from Rural east Colonia departmento - 02/18/10 14:45

"Wet walls"

I ONLY live near the top of hills :-)

With regard to the damp-walls- near-floor-level problem you see in many ROU houses, its not necessarily due to flooding.

From looking around, I'd put it down to a number of factors.

Ooop north, it is usual to include a damp proof membrane when you are building walls and under solid floors to prevent rising damp but this is rarely done here. A quick dab of waterproof paint is expected to do the job in walls and because the local tile cement is waterproof, what's the point of wasting money on a big sheet of plastic to lay under the solid concrete?

Rain water gutters and rain water disposal are generally poor to non-existent here... the roof overhang is somehow supposed to take the problem away :-) If you stand outside many ROU houses when its raining hard you'll see the water falling off the roof, hitting the ground and bouncing back onto the base of the walls.

In my view the biggest dampness problem here is condensation. The cold humidity of winter creates the potential problem but its made much worse by the lack of wall insulation and the nation's love of unvented mobile gas heaters. Roughly speaking, burning 1 kilo of gas in such machines releases 1 liter of water vapour into the dwelling and the vapour will condense on the coolest available surfaces... usually windows and the base of the masonry walls.

Combating condensation problems requires a broad spectrum approach... there is rarely a simple one-off answer. Dry heat sources, adequate ventilation and better insulation help but its also down to the occupants doing their best to dispose of any excessive water vapour they produce by means of extractor fans in bathrooms and the kitchen.

Comment #20 Shirley from Montevideo, Uruguay - 02/18/10 18:00

"Interactive Map of Montevideo"

Here is a Google Earth map of Montevideo. You can pan and zoom to your heart's content.

Comment #21 Shirley from Montevideo, Uruguay - 02/18/10 18:08

"Interactive Map of Montevideo"

Sorry; try this link instead:

• Google Earth Map of Montevideo

Comment #22 Elaine (1) from Ireland - 02/19/10 06:37

"Great map!"

Wow Shirley google earth has really come a long way! I love google maps but I haven't used google earth since checking to see if I could spot my house in Ireland a few years ago when it came out ;) Its handy that they have all the street names on it as well as the lay of the land, handy.

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