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Las Políticas (Uruguayan Politics)This forum post has messages dated from 04/19/10 through 05/10/10, please be sure to read all the messages. If you feel it is old or outdated, please follow up with a question or comment and someone may be able to update it, or reply with newer information if you have it.
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| Las Políticas (Uruguayan Politics) There are three main political parties in Uruguay. Blanco or Nacional and Colorados are the two traditional parties, which have existed nearly as long as uruguay has been an independant nation. And Frente Amplio is the socialist party.Up until the last election, when Tabaré Vásquez, of the socialist party Frente Amplio, was elected, all of the presidents had been from the traditional parties. he partido colorado (the ¨red¨ party) probably has the smallest popularity, which I would guess at least partially has to do with the fact the government was controlled by Colorados in the ´80´s, during the dictatorship, but who traditionally supports the other parties? |
| "Colorados and Dictatorship."
Jaqualine, The Parties were displaced by the Army during the Dictatorship (1973 to 1984). So it is wrong that the Colorado Party was in charge "during the dictatorship". It is true, however that some Colorado (but also Blanco) sectors were supportive to the coup d'etat of 1973, and remained supportive to the military government during the dictatorship. The Generals that were in charge during that period were Colorados or Blancos. However, there were also Colorado and Blanco sectors that, along with the Frente Amplio, opposed the dictatorship. One of those Colorado groups won the election when the dictatorship ended and had the administration in the second halph of the 80s. Many people think the deep deccay of the Colorado Party in the 2004 election was due to the 2002 crisis, during wich the Colorados were in charge. |
| "Frente Amplio -"
What some Expats may not know is that the Frente Amplio was a coalition of many Parties including the Colorado and the Blanco Parties.I remember some names like Zelmar Michelini(99) Alba Roballo but I don't recall names from the Blanco Party. The Progresista part of the Frente Amplio (Comunist and Socialist) were the Leaders, especially for their organization skills. My memory goes to the very beginning in the 1970. The Colorado Party is considered the Party of the Right and people like Pacheco Areco is in the memories of many Uruguayans. I should also say that the First Democratic President after the Dictatorship was from the Colorado Party (NO RED Party). Uruguayans in general should be happy with the last 5 years and look at the future with a smile because the Old Devil is doing all the Right things and being more of a leader than I expected. He needs to learn how to deal with the Unions, without walking away from his old "Companeros". |
Comment #304/20/10 12:43Rural east Colonia departmento | "Parties within parties"
Yes indeed. Even the Blancos (National Party) here in Colonia are a coalition of several smaller parties and less formal groups. |
| "Frente Amplio Coalition and Traditional Parties."
As Jorge said, the Frente Amplio formed a coalition in 1971 to group all the so called "Left", including the traditional marxist parties (Socialists and Comunists), other left parties of non-marxist origine (for example the Christian social-democrats), and the left wing of both Traditional parties. (To Jorge: Erro and Rodriguez Camusso were the stronger blanco leaders joining the FA in 1971). The creation of the FA afected also the traditional parties because, by absorving their left wings, it moved them more rigthwise. That's why both traditional parties now span from right to center, while the FA spans from left to center. Now, in a mostly "centerist" country, and with a balotage system, the one that better seduces the center is the one lo win the election. The FA has been the better seducer in the last two elections. Today, the Colorado Party is considered to be situated more to the right than the Blanco Party. That wasn't true throughout history. Generally the Blanco were more conservative, and in some aspects they still are (they have stronger links with the curch, for example). During the Batllist period (1erst half of the XXth century), the Colorado had a strong and ruling left wing. The more conservative right-wing postures in the Colorado Party started somehow in the sixties. |
| "Partido Colorado"
Partido Colorado vs Church - When Tamara mentioned a Building in 18 de Julio and Yaguaron that was home for the Newspaper "El Dia".I recalled a few things about this Colorado Newspaper that would be considered extremist today. For example when mentioned God (Dios) they used lower case (dios) and when the Soviet Unions National Soccer team played in Uruguay the back page that was for Sports you would only read the result but there would not be any information about the game with this Communist Country as a protagonist. Cold War at it's best. Now what Alberto said about the Partido Blanco be more conservative. I think it depends on what Conservative is for you. Ciudad vs Campo I remember in 1958 (I was a kid) but in most Houses they were at least two Newspapers everyday to read and when Herrera beat the Colorado Party for the first time in a long time, the Colorados tried to portray the Blancos as Revolutionaries. |
Comment #604/20/10 17:52Rural east Colonia departmento | "Eye of the beholder"
Leftism, centerism and rightism are relative terms. Compared to UK mainstream politics, all the main ROU political parties are nests of mad Leftie extremists :-) The other problem with a left/right view of politics is that it's a bit 2 dimensional and ignores other aspects of politics such as personal liberty -v- state control freakery. |
| "Partido Colorado."
Jorge, The anecdote about the soviet futbol team, that also happened for example with the Bolshoi Ballet, that were erased from the espectacles information of the newspaper is not of the Colorado El Dia, but of the Blanco El Pais. That conservative! When I say "conservative" I speak more in general terms and not only on the axis Left-Right. Whatever the methods and principles, the Colorado Party was the builder of the modern Uruguay. From the methods of production, to the importance of education, the social laws that distinguished Uruguay from the region, the development of the industry, and many other things were done mostly due to Colorado initiatives, very often with the opposition of the Blanco Party. The Blanco Party changed a lot during the second half of the XX cent and developed a more progressive view. However, it is still linked to some conservative conceptions. For examples, their links to the Church are still present. In the past they oposed to the divorce laws, the legal rights of the children born from single mothers, or out of the legal marriage, etc.. After 100 years of those initiatives being in place, there's no more discussion about that; but modern legislation around for example abortion, or gay rights is strongly being oposed by the Blancos. For example the gay civil union legislation and the gay rights for adoption was backed by the Frente Amplio and many Colorados, but oposed by the whole Blanco congressmen without exception. I agree with Patrick that the Left-Right dicotomy is to be seen under a new vision. It still exist though. Maybe not in the terms marxism vs. capitalism of the Cold War era, but there's still differences (after all, the names of Left and Right were origined back in the French Revolution when Marx wasn't even born). Anyway, I agree somehow with Patrick. The decisions people make are now more of a matrix that the 2 dimensions Left/Right old scheme. |
| "Uruguay and me -"
I don't have an actual position in Uruguayan politics. My long absence from the Country and the many years away from the everyday life, in all aspects. My new beginning started about 5 years ago, when a Channel created in Uruguay by Teledoce "Latinoamerica TV" reopened the doors and I rediscovered Uruguay. So my opinion is based on what I can rescue from Teledoce Noticiero - Codigo Pais - Esta Boca es Mia and the Internet, now this Forum and the opinions of friends.My voting experience in Uruguay was only once and long ago. I voted for Heber (Blanco Party). I believe that if I had to vote right now probably I'd be voting Frente Amplio. After a few months I'm happy with Mujica. He calmed the investors, the other Parties and the Military. Also I'm very impressed with his effort to try to talk about topics that I thought would be tabu for this ex-guerrillero. Nothing is easy in Uruguay where the old School is still injected in a lot of peoples minds (just listen to Colorados and Blancos and some Union Reps) When I refer to Union Rep, I'm thinking about what happened when Mujica mentioned the possibility to offer home detention to inmates over 70 years old and the Union said they won't forget and I was thinking, What are they going to do ? strike? So the strike will be politico. That is the Uruguay that I left and also part of the old school. No division, no contradictions and maybe a new form of government. Maybe the Old Devil(as Patrick calls him)is the MAN. |
| "Unions and Mujica's initiative about inmates."
Jorge, Don't judge too hard Unions, in some aspects they are acting in a more modern way than some of their counterparts in the uruguayan enterprises. Unions in Uruguay still have a political view of reality and they express that. I'm not convinced that is necessarily a bad thing. Sometimes it helps a lot. In the crisis of 2002, they were aligned by the FA not to reproduce the outrages of Argentina, for example. A much dificult alignment will have to be tried when Mujica tries to reform the State in the near future. The "political" bias of the Unions will have to prevail over some of the labour interests of the public servants, if the Gov is to produce any reform at all. Another great opportunity to demonstrate the usefullness of Uruguayan Unions participation in political matters. About Mujica's initiative about the inmates. There's such a legislation already in place that the judges can use. It is only not applicable to the crimes called of "lesa humanidad", that is, crimes as torture, political killings and "desaparición forzada". Let's be honest, what Mujica wants to do is to extend the applicability of the law so the worst representatives of the Dictatorship can go out of jail. It's not the Unions, but almost all of us in the Frente Amplio who dissagree with that. Mujica sees the issue as a personal thing. He had insisted in forgiving his old enemies. I admire that cause it's very generous from him (especially because of the conditions of imprisonment he suffered), to forgive his captors. But one thing is Mujica the person, and another thing is Mujica the President. As a President he must be sure that Justice prevail, and no one in the future can think that producing a Dictatorship is for free. Besides, such generosity is more understandable in someone who has fought a war as he did. He fought, he himself broke the legal procedures, was defeted by his enemies, suffered jail, and when things change and he gets the power he is reluctant to get revenge. However, we, most Uruguayans, didn't fought any war, and yet we had to suffer the Dictatorship's consecuences. So the mutual or unilateral generosities between the two old enemies who both did not respect our Democracy is seen as something not allowed by us. We forgived the Tupamaros through an amnesty law in 1984 cause they had already payed excessively what they did. Dictators, instead, have not yet payed their own doings. You talked about the Unions for example. You have to know that many of those Union militants, that always acted under the law, and respecting the procedures of Democracy, were sent to jail and tortured by the dictators, or, in the best cases, lost their jobs. They didn't fight in any gerrilla at all, but they suffer as much as the Tupamaros under the Dictatorship. I think they diserve to be heard. |
| "Local issues."
Appart from Patrick, local politics don't seem to interest expats much. So maybe we can have these kind of discussions offline. You can message me if you want to follow this. You know I like politics! :) |
| "Local Politics"
On the contrary, Alberto, it's very interesting and helpful for us (expats) to hear Uruguayans' views on politics and recent history. Most of the information available is in Spanish, so it's especially useful to be able to "listen in" on a discussion in English. Some of the topics are somewhat sensitive and it's not easy to just start up a conversation on these things with random Uruguayan acquaintances, so expats are rather in the dark about a lot of local politics and recent history. Please help reduce our ignorance! Thanks for your openness and explanations. |
Comment #1204/22/10 11:09Rural east Colonia departmento | "El Pepe."
"Maybe the Old Devil(as Patrick calls him)is the MAN." I've met him twice and like him hugely. I also like his pragmatic approach to the problems that beset us. I would have voted for him in spite of the horror my support inspired amongst my local middle class friends here in Colonia who seemed sure that he'd confiscate my chacra, tax my castle and probably push me down my well for good measure. :-) In my experience individuals like El Pepe are exceedingly rare. Mind you, I also support Dr Zimmer when it comes to local politics. Anybody who grades my road 4 times a year deserves my support :-) |
| "Local Politics."
Thank you Shirley. Maybe it was just that expats read and not express their opinion, so I interpreted there was not such interest. So you've got it: we'll continue to post our opinions on local politics when it is needed. I guess ancient History is easy to talk to Uruguayans than recent politics. As you can imagine it's hard to avoid being subjective in these matters. Moreover because the generation that lived during the sixties and during the Dictatorship in the seventies, participated and/or suffered a war. Many people in Uruguay suffered a lot during the period (torture, rape, imprisonment in very hard conditions, confiscation of properties, you name it); many more Uruguayans have relatives or friends that were in that situation, or had to expatriate, or were even killed. It wasn't really like in Argentina or Chile, but for a peacefull (and in the sixties, naive) country with a large tradition of Democracy, that was traumatic. Scars still ache. So there will always be some passion involved. For expats it will always be more reasonable to listen all the opinions you can get. I not always can put aside my own subjectivity! :) |
Comment #1404/22/10 11:28Rural east Colonia departmento | "Evils of the past."
"I admire that cause it's very generous from him (especially because of the conditions of imprisonment he suffered), to forgive his captors. But one thing is Mujica the person, and another thing is Mujica the President. As a President he must be sure that Justice prevail, and no one in the future can think that producing a Dictatorship is for free."Coming as I do from a land where people hold grudges for centuries which has suffered nearly 850 years of sporadic warfare, I support Pepe's views on forgiveness of past evils but that's easy for me to say as I didn't suffer at the hands of the ROU military. Various states have tackled such problems in a wide variety of ways... from ignoring the past altogether (as in Spain) to endless series of witch-hunts. In my own sad land, the Good Friday agreement drew a line under the past, released the prisoners and attempted to forget about it... a process helped by the "convenient" double helicopter crash which killed off all the senior intelligence officers and spooks at one fell swoop. I admire the approach the South Africans adopted with their Truth and Reconciliation tribunals. Anyway, we had another referendum on the subject last year so I'm content to leave the question to the deliberations of the Uruguayo people. |
| "El Pepe."
I also like Pepe (of course, I voted for him). However one not always have to agree with everything that the people we like thinks. In this case, I dissagree. I assume he stepped back cause he was alone in such "personal" approach to the issue of the aged dictators.Patrick, you know the vote is secret. When you get your citizenship, you don't have to tell your neighbours you are the black sheep. ;) |
Comment #1604/22/10 11:40Rural east Colonia departmento | "Voting"
"Patrick, you know the vote is secret. When you get your citizenship, you don't have to tell your neighbours you are the black sheep. ;)"You're right. In all my life I've never seen a voting system administered in a fairer or more secret way. As to my neighbours, I rather enjoy winding them up about my admiration for Pepe and my support for his antithesis in the form of Dr Zimmer who many of them view as much too far to the right :-) |
| "Evils of the past."
I can understand your position. But all situations are different. I don't know enough about the details, but I can figure out that in Ireland, with politics and national interests mixed with Religion, and a foreing power involved during centuries, overcoming the past evils and advancing to a vision more towards the future, may have required much more effort and generosity. Other long-run conflicts like the one of the Middle East, the vask country, and Colombia, have similar ingredients or some others with the same complexity. Fortunately, Uruguay relatively recent evils can be maped like that. In our case, it's is more of a limited group of people that fight between each other and cought the rest of the population in between. There has been a lot of effort to avoid the original polarization. And the way we found was a wide amnesty for one side and the other, but in the case of the military, identiffying some(very few) responsibles who directly participated in the worst crimes, or did it inderectly ordering the crimes from the higer posts. It's more of a message to the future, and the healing of the affected by punishing the most notorious participants, than renewing the conflict. Mujica has even a more generous vision. But, as I said, he is in a position that differs from the one most of the population is. That is, he too was a participant. So I guess (just guess, I can't say for sure), his feeling about the matter has a lot of generosity with the old enemy, but may also have a pitch of shared guilty. Anyway, though I don't agree with his proposal, I still think his proposal shows him as a great man. |
| "Uruguay"
I wish when I moved to the USA without English that I could read opinions from people like Patrick, Alberto and all other Expats in SPANISH.Yesterday after Alberto requested to stop talking about Uruguayan politics because of the lack of audience according to him. I thought he was wrong, maybe what happened before when we talked about the USA and Bush etc. that was out of line , but as long as we talk about Uruguay where they live or they are going to live is alright. I like to pass the ball to smart people who can give us very good information in a very good writing format. It works for me and a should work for others. One more thing Alberto, I don't have any right to disagree with people who suffered during the Dictatorship (I was there for almost 2 years with a business next to the Ministerio of Interior)and I will support them but Mujica's idea is very futuristic. Maybe the Country should ask those people to sacrifice one more time. Patrick I don't think that Alberto will be following Party lines in the Intendente vote in Montevideo. |
| "About our President idea and other ramdom opinions"
Hi There, I believe the proposal of the president is not right, and he should have mention it before coming for president, since those guys really deserve to be in jail, and is against having a consistent legal system. And I believe there is a little of Stockolm sindrome in our President regarding this issue. His tricky ways are clear, since he only mention the idea after elected. Also is his idea, and not the party that elected him for candidate in the first place. I voted the guy, because I support FA and to avoid president Lacalle to run the country. Wich will accelerate the process of this country going to the dogs. Lacalle get us into Mercosur, and destroy our industries. Try to find Uruguayan soap in the supermarket?.Producing the unemployed fathers of the poor that today lives in our shanty towns -Cantegriles) About Mujica, I appreciate he is an honest man, that made a lot of mistakes, not listening to Che guevara that recommended not to fight in Uruguay, but is very sad for the Uruguayan left to have came out with a person so unfit for the role, I do enjoy anyway the democracy that brings him to power, but again, although honest, unfit for the role of managing a country. Overall i believe is very unfair that the tupamaros end up running this country after all the damage they did for the country and left. They helped the Facist to find a reason to break democracy. The problem is not only him, but all the circle of people in the MPP with a lot of resentment against other sectors of the left. For those who do not remember the Tupamaros were not allowed in the Frente Amplio for many years. Other worring fact is his wife, that holds a position in the parliament, the other day I saw him on Buenos Aires, and his wife was with him. I just wondered what was she doing there. She is a senator, so in a working day, she should stay in parliament and not with her husband. I am sure she has more influence in him than Danilo Astori or the Frente Amplio congress. There is a bit of what has been called 'voluntarismo', to try to do things, without really realizing the means you need to do it. Lot of MPP people has some distrust for the professionals and technocrats that you inevitably need to run a country. They will try to do things a little bit like pushing ahead, without knowing what is required..and then, the results will just not come up. Luckily other sectors of the FA control many other parts of the goverment, like Economy. In the political arena, the Frente is far from being real left, the external debt has raised, the AFAP -private pensions- are still in place, the private pseudo - Universities prosper (The issue is not that they are private, but that they are much easier than the public, but the goverment recognizes the diplomas as equal), some of them funded by Opus Dei, Catolic Church or other foreigh religions and linked with the neo-liberal conceptions of society, challenging the public - egalitarian paradigma of access to universal education. And paving the way to buy the intelectuals and professionals with more capitalistic doctrine. In the external front, the guy is happy to make pathetic aproaches to our neighbours wich are clearly savage nations, when talking about politics. (Not that we are not with our problems, but give me a break, you know how Mafia works in Argentina) I wish him well, for the good of all. If something reduces my fears, is the inertia of the Uruguayan system, that slows all bad and good actions that the president tries to implement. Thus warranting the boat will not change much direction. Well if you like to hear a Uruguayan talk mention football or politics...do not say i did not warned you!!! Have a good day |
| "Welcome back."
Hi Martin, welcome back! I agree with some of your points and disagree with others, but let's not bore all these expats. ;) However, let me correct something that is more information than opinion. When you say "the external debt has raised" it is really a somehow tricky or missleading cliche used by the Right, and it deserves a couple of comments. First of all, it's not "external", but "public" debpt. External is a missleading concept cause the bonds can be sold abroad or in-country. By the way, an important amount of those bonds are in the hands of the retirement funds, that is: they are internal public debpt. Second, only the nominal debpt has grown. The absolute debpt (nominal debtp minus reserves), is a little lower than in 2004. Absolute debtp is meaningful concept in terms of the Economy; nominal debpt is not. But still most meaningful than absolute debpt, is the debpt relative to the IBP. This measures the debpt of the country in relation to its Economy and thus, to its paying capacity. It's as if you have a Mastercard bill of 20.000 pesos a month. Is that low or high? It depends of how much you earn. If you earn 15.000 pesos a month, man, you are in trouble. If you earn 60.000 pesos a month, it's nothing. The debpt/IBP relation was dropped from around 65% in 2004 to less than 30% now. |
Comment #2105/06/10 03:11Rural east Colonia departmento | "El Pepe"
Give him his due, he talked about his views with respect to the military and the aged prisoners before the election so he isn't guilty of hiding his views on the matter. I too find his wife to be slightly scary. I understand that she got enough votes to be third in line for the presidency should Pepe and Astori die in office so I'm hoping that they don't :-) |
| "Lucia."
Martin, Patrick, There's an kind of very retro image of Lucia, cause she was part of the hard core of the Tupamaros in the sixties. She was never much harder than her fellows, but Old machoist Uruguay was taken by surprise by that young upper-class girl that went out from a nuns' school to use weapons against the military. It seems some of that long past image still remains in the minds of the rightist dinosaurs... She's made the same spiritual and intellectual journey her husband has. She does not have his negociation abilities but she doesn't have his political power either. She ended as the third person in the presidential row because she was in the first place on the more voted list, in which his husband was the actual political leader, not because she personally owns more votes than other senators. And, anyway, a President in Uruguay cannot govern without the support of the Parliament. |
Comment #2305/07/10 13:21Rural east Colonia departmento | "Fear not."
I'm happy to say that I don't suffer sleepless nights worrying about the possibility of her gaining the presidency but on the occasion when I was introduced to her, I had a worrying feeling that I was being introduced to a hungry crocodile :-) |
| "Feelings are a personal thing."
I haven't ever been introduced to a hungry crocodile, so I cannot compare. The nearest I've been to a crocodile, it was on roasted on my plate, and I was the hungry one. By the way, not bad at all. |
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